Name: Fortune Global Forum 2023: Climate Innovation Spotlight - Turning Co2 Into Rock
Uploaded: 2023-11-28
Duration: 14 min 5 s
Description: Talal Hasan, Founder and CEO, 44.01; Winner, 2022 Earthshot Prize In conversation with: Ellie Austin, Deputy Editorial Director, Live Media, FORTUNE

Talal Hasan, Founder and CEO, 44.01; Winner, 2022 Earthshot Prize In conversation with: Ellie Austin, Deputy Editorial Director, Live Media, FORTUNE

Fortune Global Forum 2023: Climate Innovation Spotlight - Turning Co2 Into Rock 

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The sustainability revolution and combating the existential threat of climate change are often the focus of conversations that Fortune has with ceos and global leaders throughout the year. Each day. Here at the Fortune Global Forum, we're going to put the spotlight on an entrepreneur working on making a positive impact on the climate through innovative ideas. Our first spotlight is on the work of Talal Hassan, founder and CEO of the start up 44 01. Talal is also the winner of the 2022 Earths Shot Prize. 4401 uses technology that removes co two from the atmosphere by minerals. It in a type of rock found here in the UAE as well as all over the world. Let's learn more about the process and how 4401 plans to implement it at scale. Please welcome Talal to the stage. Hello, Talal. Um Hello everyone. Thank you so much for joining us. So I want to start with what seems like a basic question um for people here who might not be familiar with the process of minerals, carbon dioxide in rock, how does it work? And I know you've got a very important prop with you here today as well. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. So yes, we turn co two carbon dioxide into rock. We do this using a special type of rock called peridotite which is typically found 40 kilometers in the subsurface. However, it's pushed up to the surface in certain parts of the world here in the UAE being a very large deposit that comes to the surface. Now, this rock is important because when it comes to the surface, it reacts naturally with carbon dioxide minerals. The co two converting it into rock forever. I've got a sample here with me. As you can see these white veins going through the rock. This is carbon dioxide that's naturally been converted into, into, into rock in the subsurface. And I think we've got some footage of one of your projects here in the UAE. Can we roll that footage and maybe tell you could talk us through what's happening? Have we got the footage? If not, I can come back to it. Oh, here we go. Here it is. So what are we seeing here, Tal? So this is our site in Fiji in the northern Emirate of Fir. Here in the UAE. We have built this site in collaboration with Adnoc as well as renewable energy that's provided by Mazda. And what we are doing on this site is we are pulling carbon dioxide out of the air so out of the atmosphere and we are taking that co two, we are combining it with seawater and we are injecting this deep into the subsurface almost about a kilometer deep where we can speed up this natural mineralization reaction using our process so that we can remove CO two in a matter of months. And because usually, I think in nature, it takes, it can take up to a decade to mineralize carbon dioxide. And so what role does this acceleration of the process play in your ability to scale? Absolutely. So this process is a natural process. I think that's really important. It's a natural chemical process that happens on the rocks all over the, all over the world actually. And what we are doing with our technology is we're speeding up this natural process, we speed it up by about 100,000 times. So rather than taking decades, as you had mentioned, it takes us single digit months. And that's really important because for us to generate a carbon credit, we need to remove net 1000 kg or one ton of co two to generate one carbon credit. And I mentioned earlier in the introduction that peridotite can be found, I think on every continent on earth. Why is it then that you've focused your work so far on the UAE and Amman? And you mentioned the rock coming to the surface. Can you talk about the environmental factors that make that happen in this particular location? Sure. So I am from Oman. That's, that's where I'm from. And I was part of the technology investment arm of the sovereign of Oman. And we were looking at technologies that could help us address challenges that we've had that we have in the region. And I came across CO two emissions saw how steep they've increased and that this could potentially be a challenge for the region. And so I started looking at carbon capture and what I quickly realized was that there was a lot of people who were looking at capturing CO two, but there weren't many solutions that were permanent, that could eradicate that co two. So this is when I started looking at what we could potentially do to remove CO two permanently and safely. And I came across the work of a couple of scientists from the US where they were doing mineralization and they had a hypothesis that these rocks, these ultra Matic PTO type rocks could speed up the process. And I discovered that there was some in our backyard. So it was a very natural step uh kind of serendipity, I guess, but uh to, to then try and explore how we can do this. And we did a pilot back in 2021 in Oman proved that this process happens. We proved that it was safe. We didn't cause any damage to the environment. And, and then now we have been lucky enough to partner with Adnoc to scale the technology here. In the UAE, if anyone has any questions, please get them ready because I'll come to you in a second. So you, you mentioned that this process is safe, it's also permanent. There's no risk of leakage. Can you talk to us about the cost of it and how the cost compares to other examples of carbon capture? Absolutely. So we are just three years young as a company. And what we do is we don't do the capture piece, we just do the the mineralization piece. So the the other options are geological storage, which is quite synonymous with, with the oil and gas industry. We're providing a solution which is a an and, and it's something which you can use alongside conventional storage for us. The type of rock we're injecting into, it's a metamorphic rock versus a sedimentary rock, which is what you typically use for geological storage. So we don't see ourselves as competing with them. However, we do have to match the price that a sedimentary geological storage reservoir would incur. So uh for us, we are aiming to be able to match that price. We have made some great strides. Um No one's ever drilled in this rock before. No one's ever done what we're doing in this particular type of rock. So every injection we do, we find ways to, to bring the cost down even further. And we're confident that within the next few years, we're gonna make this absolutely feasible. So we can scale it on a cost basis. Some critics of carbon capture say that as a process, it may be distracts from efforts to reduce emissions in the first place. What would your response be to that? It's a, it's a very good point. So we go by the IPCC which is the Intergovernmental panel of climate change. And what the IPCC have done is they've mapped out what the world needs to do for us to hit net zero. And uh decarbonisation is in there. Um you know, natural solutions such as planting trees, forestation is in there. However, there is a very large piece or a piece which um is for carbon removal technologies and they've predicted that by 2030 that number is one gig to per year that has to be used that has to be removed from the atmosphere using technology and that grows to about 20 gigatons per year by 2050. And just to put into perspective, one gig to a year, that is the equivalent of all of air travel globally. Um We mentioned, OK, so we've spoken about a man, we've spoken about the UAE I know that you're in conversations to expand into other countries and continents. The USA, I think Japan Europe, can you talk us through the decision making process of where you launch a project? And what might be a reason why you decide not to start in a specific location? So superb question. So when we look at a location, there's four things that we need on, on a specific site. We need the rock, we need co two emissions or access to co two, we need green electrons. So renewable energy and we also need water in our process. This does not have to be fresh water, it can be sea water. So we are looking at sites that can accommodate these four parameters. However, one thing which is really interesting about our process is we're quite complementary to existing uh energy companies. So what we are doing effectively is um when you compare us to what oil and gas does, rather than taking the hydrocarbon out of the ground, we're putting the carbon back in and what that means is we need the same partnerships, we need the same talent, we need the same drill rigs and there's a lot of um kind of close ties and tie ends there. So for us, when we look at a site, if it's a territory that has oil and gas or, or has had access to oil and gas, it helps and it's quite good for the energy transition for us to be able to leverage off those resources. I've got a question related to that. But first of all, I want to see if anyone in the audience has a question. If not, I will continue for now. If that changes, please just raise your hand. Um The countries that I mentioned in, in that list of places where you're thinking of expanding to are all developed countries. I wonder whether you have plans, goals of working in developing countries and linked to what you were just saying, what the challenges of that might be. Yes. So developing countries brilliant, we find that direct air capture which is pulling co two out of the air. Like what we're doing in Fiji is a really elegant solution for, for these types of countries because it's a decentralized solution. So it allows us to turn up to a site and we don't need to tie into a hard to abate emission or you know, a steel factory or an ammonia plant and we can develop our own co two from pulling it out of the atmosphere. The other piece is renewable energy. It is now becoming with technology, it's becoming much more readily available. So you've seen out of the videos just now we set up in fora solar panels backed up with batteries. So we actually charge up the batteries during the day and that site is now 100% powered by solar. We also have a biofuel generator in the background there. In case in case we get, I think we have three days of power on that site, please don't quote me on that. So if we have three cloudy days, then we also have a biofuel backup generator. So technology is allowing us to get access to green electrons. It's allowing us to get access to co two from the atmosphere. And these are the technologies that are going to help us drive and set these sites up in developing countries. Ok. And what do you think the timeline might be for that? So we are pushing really hard on the technology. We've made some huge strides, especially on, on this site in Fiji. They're the two deepest boreholes in the world in this type of rock. And as, as we continue to make these strides, we will bring the cost down, we will make the process more scalable. We are targeting to reach um to have a site that can do about a million tons per year. This is on one site uh by 2030 2030. OK. My final question um is that Bill Gates is an investor, I believe in 44 01, which we should say 44 01 for anyone who doesn't know is the molecular mass of carbon dioxide, not something that I knew, but found out in my research. Um has Mr Gates given you any advice on leadership on how to be an innovator who leaves a lasting impact on the world. So breakthrough energy is, is one of our investors. Yes. And um they have been phenomenal. They've really helped us uh with not only the right connections, helping us with financing, but also with coaching, mentoring. And we should say that breakthrough is the Bill Gates standard venture fund. So, uh so they've been great with uh coaching, mentoring. And, you know, it, it's, it's about people at the end of the day, it's about getting the right people in the right mindset, having that innovative uh mindset trying things which no one else has ever tried before. Um And especially in, in the field that we're in, no one's ever done this before. So we need to, we're constantly looking for people that are willing to challenge the status quo. And uh breakthrough really helps us, um do that. Well, very good luck and, and thank you so much, we'll be watching to see how you get on. Thank you to L.